Funimation Sues A.D. Vision, Sentai, Others for US$8 Million

AN Shows
81

i really dont care what they call it. they might as well call it fandubs because i dont want Funi’s story that closely resembles the mangaka’s i want the story the mangaka wrote, which is why i like anime.

IF Funi can do what Nickelodeon is doing and make their own like Avatar and Kora, THEN they can see if people like THEIR story. otherwise dont F with it, cause if it aint broke dont fix it.

the only reason people buy form Funi is because that is how to get it “here”, not for Funi’s vision. they have no creative talent, just licensing money and distribution along with VAs.

this re-vision or re-version crap is what is hurting the shows since places CAN see the original online and tell, HEY they been ripping us off and making stuff up for a long time; when you see a legal anime compared to what these other places release like 4kids and Funi.

its as dumb as the Earthsea writer complaining about Miyazaki and Ghibli altering the story when the anime was made, because they never looked into the companies work before. or like the Demolition Man director directing Star Trek Nemesis though he never saw or liked Star Trek before…and you see the results of that…franchise dead and required a restart.

VAs can get jobs elsewhere…this isnt the Fox v Simpsons VAs kind of thing…its the bean counters and execs that screw with stuff that isnt theirs that bothers me.

sure CN stopped airing One Piece, but its because people stopped watching it due to Funi or 4kids changing everything like a cigar to nothingness with random smoke coming from someones mouth, or a cigarette to a lollipop, or a “brownish” pirate to pink.

get someone that can translate the story, get it to match the flaps so the same and correct story is told, and just… do what ADV did and make good releases of dubs/subs.

we have the internet and the fans can tell when you are changing things you ought not…so time for games and gimmicks is over. be a translation and distribution house, and let the REAL talent create the projects and just get their work out to the public.

the gimmicks arent helping getting anime over here, and its too late to avoid full digitization now.

:angry: Funi… do not want.

82

The Cigar thing and changes were approved by Toei. So the question really is who fault does it become when the Japanese side approves something. Even when Funimation got it they made them keep the changes for the CN airing. The stuff is uncut on the DVD’s. It’s actually one of their better more accurate dubs. Also got to remember when it comes to kids in the US smoking is bad. Just like real guns are bad.

The reason One Piece stopped on CN was because CN and Toei could not come to an agreement. From what I heard CN was originally paying Toei then CN wanted Toei to pay them. Since really the marketing of toy aspect was dead they would not take the deal. Funimation had no part in the TV deal other then being forced to do two versions. One for close to 4kids dub with Funimations VA’s and one uncut for the DVD release. The ratings were quite good for a Anime on TV so it was not pulled because of people stopped watching. It probably been pulled anyway after Toonami was canned. CN gets money from their original stuff is the answer as to why shows that gets good ratings get canceled. Only show they don’t have some kind of investment in is Pokemon and they may actually have something in it.

You have to remember Toei wanted a show they could market fully to kids. It’s what got us the dubbed Sailor Moon and the Original DBZ dub all those years ago. Also why they originally chose 4Kids even though Funimation from what I heard offered them around the same price. 4kids though could offer them a spot on broadcast TV.

83

yeah it was the same time the Mothra movies came out 4 kids also that TOEI tried to get that market, but the problem then means TOEI and 4kids little act dumped ALL anime into the realm of kids programming which has made it hard for other shows to get aired over here such that people dont think “cartoon=children” even though the first cartoons, like Betty Boop, was porn.

i know the CN thing a bit, but either way it harmed the industry and Time-Warner isnt helping much now the WB is gone and those shows no longer air much on free-TV. just look how Time-Warner treats TAN where they could be joining in the anime business and getting more shows out and again get their own TV channel.

so even if Funi didnt start it, they could have changed it by telling TOEI, look this isnt what the market wants, we need to air it back the right way such as Funi does, or did with its near simulcast of One Piece on its website. though its been half a year since i watched it.

“if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.” Funi could have done LOTS to alleviate MANY problems. so its their inaction as well as action, with the power they HAD that gets to me.

its like cross-dressing in Pokemon was a bad thing…i jsut hate Americanization for ANY reason. it would do good for America to have ANY culture rather than the greed is has as a culture now and for the last 30+ years that i know of.

84

“In the name of the toons, I’ll punish you!”
“It’s not just for kids; I wanted that part, but it was dubbed in Canada!”
–Excel Excel, Excel Saga (Larissa Wolcott, ADV Dub, Ep 17 ~18:00)

Funimation might be able to eventually use the legal system to strong-arm 8 million of Sentai’s dollars away, but even with that cash infusion I don’t imagine them being able to dub nearly as well. I’m finding that Funimation’s dubs tend to be “acceptable” at average, but swing down to mediocrity more often than they are exceptional. I just lucked out and saw their exceptional dubs first.

Funimation does kick ass when it comes to packaging. Their designer Antimere Robinson was right: The packaging can be just as important, if not moreso, as what is inside it. It’s the only area where Funi soundly defeats ADV/Sentai. With the exception of the cool rare (though low-res) aluminum art boxes, ADV didn’t really enter this fight. I also don’t remember Funimation stripping on-disc extras from their re-releases, which is a crime in and of itself. I suppose they had to excel at something.

85

[quote=“celestial_being”]

“In the name of the toons, I’ll punish you!”
“It’s not just for kids; I wanted that part, but it was dubbed in Canada!”
–Excel Excel, Excel Saga (Larissa Wolcott, ADV Dub, Ep 17 ~18:00)

Funimation might be able to eventually use the legal system to strong-arm 8 million of Sentai’s dollars away, but even with that cash infusion I don’t imagine them being able to dub nearly as well. I’m finding that Funimation’s dubs tend to be “acceptable” at average, but swing down to mediocrity more often than they are exceptional. I just lucked out and saw their exceptional dubs first.

Funimation does kick ass when it comes to packaging. Their designer Antimere Robinson was right: The packaging can be just as important, if not moreso, as what is inside it. It’s the only area where Funi soundly defeats ADV/Sentai. With the exception of the cool rare (though low-res) aluminum art boxes, ADV didn’t really enter this fight. I also don’t remember Funimation stripping on-disc extras from their re-releases, which is a crime in and of itself. I suppose they had to excel at something.[/quote]

I honestly think that Dubbing of Anime is purely an Art ( A black one at that! ) rather than anything remotely resembling a Science. And as Art the Dubs don’t always work for every Anime viewer.

Sometimes you get someone like me who doesn’t have a problem with most dubs, and sometimes you get someone who can’t listen to a particular Dub because it jars or grates on their senses. It may be the Voice Actor choices, the VA performances, the scripting, the directing or the degree of localization in the translation. Not to mention overall editing / non-editing of the Anime visuals.

It’s really a wonder that an Anime survives the process at all.

Mark Gosdin

86

For ADV/Sentai/Seraphim I would say that dubbing is an art, but after seeing Adventures in Voice Acting, every other studio tries their best to distill dubbing down to a science. A cold, callous, unfeeling science.

They record lines cold, after 4 beeps, and they wonder why their dubs tend to sound stilted and emotionless. In his podcast, Funimation actor J. Michael Tatum has stated that the 4 beeps method did not work in several shows and that they had to do the dub “ADV style” to get it to work (The Monica Rial & Jamie Marchi eps IIRC).

Perhaps the most interesting information gleaned from that production is that the casting director for Bang/Zoom can barely speak English and that several of their biggest actors explicitly say that they don’t care for anime at all and belittle the medium (Admittedly some Sentai actors have said this as well, but they do a better job IMO so I don’t care :wink: ).

But yet Sentai will still be castigated by the internet at large for “bad dubbing” because “their dubbing technique isn’t what the professional dubbers use, so it must be wrong” and that “their dub doesn’t match the subs”. The latter one annoys me to no end as it expresses profound ignorance of the dubbing process as well as translation and yet every professional reviewer on ANN espouses that view.

87

[quote=“celestial_being”]
But yet Sentai will still be castigated by the internet at large for “bad dubbing” because “their dubbing technique isn’t what the professional dubbers use, so it must be wrong” and that “their dub doesn’t match the subs”. The latter one annoys me to no end as it expresses profound ignorance of the dubbing process as well as translation and yet every professional reviewer on ANN espouses that view.[/quote]

To be fair to ANN, Theron Martin knows what he’s talking about when he judges a dub, and always seems to give a fair review of it. He seems to be a pretty big fan of Seraphim Studios, as he was a big fan of ADV’s Houston Studio. While I really take what Zac says about a show to heart, I don’t pay any attention to what he has to say about a dub. Same goes for Carl, I rarely agree with his opinion of a dub. Although I used to disagree with his opinion of a show very often, and still do from time to time, our opinions have gotten a lot closer then they were. But I still moan a little when a show I’m interested get’s reviewed by him. Hope Chapman is a funimation fangirl, so I take that into account when I read her reviews. She instantly loves any funimation dub and tries to find a problem with any Seraphim dub. Whenever Bamboo reviews something though, I know I’ll usually agree with whatever she has to say about it. She’s good about the dubs too, but sadly doesn’t review enough DVDs. She’s doing all the streaming stuff now-a-days. Carlo Santos is good about dubs and his opinion in general matches mine pretty well. Justin’s opinion on shows is usually spot on with mine, like a complete match. But I don’t always agree with his opinion on dubs. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t.

88

[quote]In his podcast, Funimation actor J. Michael Tatum has stated that the 4 beeps method did not work in several shows and that they had to do the dub “ADV style” to get it to work (The Monica Rial & Jamie Marchi eps IIRC).
[/quote]

Never knew that, could you explain more please?

Well, voice acting is a business in america just like in japan. But in america, you get very little pay. So if you want to be a voice actor. You got to be flexible, talent, and wide soical knowledge of the studio people you know. I say Vic’s popularity in FMA is kind of like the popularity of a voice actor in japan. Voice actors in america need to audition in lots of acting stuff (ex: ads, anime, radio, etc.) to get money to survive. Voice actors need to not wander or think so much on there previous work so they won’t interfere with there next work since that might result copying or downplay of acting from previous work.

I do wish voice acting was as great as I thought of, but its a business like always. Though of the negative stuff, I want to be a voice actor. But most people who get in are people who graduated at Huston or other Texas universities, and I live in Ohio. If the pay was as great as these crappy hollywood actors, original animation actors, or japanese voice actors. Maybe it would have been a much happier system.

89

I sometimes agree with ANN’s opinions on shows, but as only The Answerman (and only in his latest column) has acknowledged that what the dub cast is saying is NOT supposed to be what the subtitles on the screen say, verbatim, I have no respect for them as professional reviewers.

There’s also little point to their assigned grades for a series as they frequently and adamantly insist that their ratings for each show are relevant only to that show and that you can’t compare shows based on grades. If one show gets an A and another gets a B, even if both grades were assigned by the same reviewer, ANN insists that they are not saying that the show with the A is better than the show with the B.

I’m also pretty darn tired of ANN praising or passing Funimation for “script adaptations” but lambasting Sentai for similarly making adaptations.

90

There’s still hope. Funimation’s Micah Solusod came to Texas from Hawaii for the explicit purpose of becoming a VA and he succeeded. Though I’ve heard enough voice actor commentary to know that the only real way to be a VA is to go to where the dubbing is done, and to know people who are VAs. Chris Ayres will tell you to train to become a professional VA as that is the only way to get into the business, that there “are no backdoors to get in”, but practically every other VA says that is bogus and that to get in the most important thing is to know someone who is in already. Though just working at the studios, as anything, seems to give you a good chance of getting a VA role (see Baccano). Though all the actors do say that the pay is rather weak, which explains why actors like Scott Freeman talk about holding down secondary jobs and why other VAs do voice overs for commercials.

I also have an idealized image of voice acting and anime dubbing, and I know that the reality doesn’t live up to that. Though Sentai comes the closest, with Matt Greenfield being a huge anime fan and talking about starting ADV out of passionate fandom. Other NA companies employ plenty of people who are anime fans (and sadly many who aren’t) but I don’t know of any other company whose founders founded their companies out of sheer fandom. Funimation’s founder and co-owner Gen Fukunaga certainly isn’t renown for his anime fandom. He’s just a generic venture capitalist as far as I am aware. While I maintain that there’s nothing wrong with that, as a huge anime fan I gravitate towards the company that was founded by fans and is open about that legacy.

For the dubbing, Funimation follows the “hear 4 beeps then say your line” methodology of dubbing whereas ADV has subscribed to the “unprofessional” method of listening to the lines which come before what the VA is to record so it is more like a conversation and has a flow to it. Of course, the first person to record has to listen to the Japanese seiyu, but according to commentaries and the Monica Rial podcast that still works. In the podcast Monica Rial talks about difficulty adapting to the “4 beep” method, and having to go back and forth between the 2 when she works at each studio, and then launches into an anecdote about recording a show where the engineer had also done work at ADV and they were all in agreement that the dub sounded stilted so they did it “ADV style” and that worked.
(If you do check out that episode of the podcast the beginning is mostly a discussion about booze and Britain and the last 20 minutes or so is rather political, just as a heads-up)

In Adventures in Voice Acting they show the “4 beep method” several times, and it worked therein as follows: The VA listens to a line from the show (this step does not always happen), then they ready themselves for a few seconds, then they hear several timed beeps in their headset to ready them to record. On the 4th beep they record. Sentai has them record without this long waiting period between hearing the line and recording their line which makes for a more natural delivery and dub.

The Jamie Marchi bit was about Spice and Wolf 1 where Marchi’s character and Tatum’s character are having a rather lengthy back-and-forth conversation and the 4 beep method just wasn’t working as their lines didn’t sound as though they were in response to one another’s so they, if memory serves, both went into the booth and recorded simultaneously. While that isn’t necessarily the “ADV method”, it still showcases a time where the callous 4 beep method failed. Interestingly, if you’ve seen the extras on DNAngel Disc 3 you see that the Japanese seiyu for DNAngel had the same problem and found the same solution.

91

That is pretty interesting. I thought the 4 beep method looked & sounded pretty annoying. I did listen to some VA commentaries, my first commentaries I listened to were the Neon Genesis Evangleion Platinum edition commentaries. I really liked Spike Spencer’s acting and his talk in the commentary. Plus Matt was awesome not only as a person but as an actor, especially as Hyuga. I think NGE english dub was the english dub that got me quit listening to japanese dub. Though I still watch some titles before they get an english dub, I take into consideration for what the english dub might be. So far, Another will become a very difficult english dub to make IMO. So I think the 4 beep method feels like a big no no, because of the conversations and music that plays that matches the character expression/feelings.

Well, so far. Its been a while since the Funimation trail threat and I can still remember the fear XD.

92

celestial_being: I think Brian Hanson has the worst taste in anime possible. And he’s horrible at figuring out if a dub is good or not. He’s a nice guy, don’t get me wrong. But the stuff he writes bothers me, just because it’s often the very opposite of how I feel. I miss Zac’s snarky column personally. He let the hate flow freely, and it was interesting to say the least. I thought I’d be happy to see someone fresh give answerman column a go. Major disappointment.

I do think that a lot of the time, especially during the boom days of ADV, Geneon, and Funimation as major powerhouses, ANN’s reviewers were never happy with the dub. If the dub is literal they say it’s “too stiff and stays too close to the subtitles” but if they try and losen it up a bit “the dub is too liberal” or something. So that is a valid point. But again my previous comment stand.

Central Park Media, ADV, and Animeigo were founded by fans who wanted to get anime out there. They were trying something new, and thought they’d fail. But did it because they liked anime so much and thought they’d regret it for the rest of their lives if they didn’t at least try. John O’Donnell and Robert Woodhead were fans of the stuff. Personally I think Gen does like anime a little bit, but he’s not the fanboy Matt Greenfield is. He may watch the occasional show, but he couldn’t tell you the stuff Matt could rattle off the top of his head. He is a businessman, which is good because it is a business. And if the guy is a good businessman you can succeed, and we’d get more anime. But I do think it makes it quite cold and lifeless at times. AND there’s plenty of benefits a company run by fans has that one run for profit and dislikes/is indifferent to the material won’t have. John O’Donnell once said that his company, and ADV, and a few others were companies doing what they do because they liked anime. However the bigger companies, the newer ones, they could be selling aluminum siding for all they care. It’s just to make money. (paraphrasing him btw).

As for Matt Greenfield as an actor. I don’t think he likes to act much, he likes to be monsters or have bit parts. But I think he’s an excellent actor. As you guys pointed out, he’s top notch as Hyuga. It’s just not Hyuga without him.

BTW we have drifted so far off topic .

93

I haven’t seen many horror anime, at least not that I recall, but if even Funimation can deliver a stellar dub for an “atmospheric” show like the classic (IMO) mushishi then I have no doubt that Sentai will nail the Another dub.

Though shows that focus less on rapid fire dialogue and more on atmosphere are easier to dub. I shudder to think what would have happened had Funimation dubbed Excel Saga. It would have been another good show hampered by a subpar dub.

Sadly funimation has almost all the best shows as of now. It pains me to admit it. IMO Sentai has always had the better dubs but, especially now that they’re raked in so many rescue releases (sadly dooming many extras to oblivion), they’ve always had the superior show catalog.

94

I think I would like to see Zac return to writing a column, something where his snarkiness could amuse but he wouldn’t really be interacting with people. From his posts in the ANN forum Zac strikes me as a person who could be entertaining, even if you didn’t agree with him (which is often for me), but who you really wouldn’t want to converse with. I don’t really see eye to eye with Brian Hanson either. While I agree with some of his stances I don’t really agree with his opinions on most shows. I thought it interesting that he is the only ANN columnist to point out that dubs aren’t supposed to match the subs, though his statements on the issue were still rather false. He states that subtitles are derived from the “first translation” of the Japanese script but according to Matt Greenfield and Tiffany Grant, subtitles are the last, final, most distilled translation as it is hardest to translate to subs. From the Funimation side Clarine Harp has effectively said the same thing.

Though considering that these ANN guys are supposed to be “in the know” with the anime industry and be “the internet’s most trusted anime news source”, it is disturbing for them to be so wrong concerning something that the actual industry members are so open about.

[quote=“Prede”]
As for Matt Greenfield as an actor. I don’t think he likes to act much, he likes to be monsters or have bit parts. But I think he’s an excellent actor. As you guys pointed out, he’s top notch as Hyuga. It’s just not Hyuga without him.

BTW we have drifted so far off topic .[/quote]

I’m more of a fan of Greenfield as a director.

Are we really off topic? We’re getting into all the reasons that we don’t want Funimation’s lawsuit to succeed as then they stand a good chance of being the last real NA anime studio standing, and we don’t want that. No anime fan should want that.

Though a worse eventuality would be having all the anime companies release their wares here directly at Japanese prices. That would kill my anime fandom.

95

[quote=“celestial_being”]
Sadly funimation has almost all the best shows as of now. [/quote]

I disagree with that. I think they got some decent titles but the majority of their newer non-rescued titles are usually at best one time watch titles for me. I think they get more of the shows that are easier and safer to dub, but if I were to go with my gut even NISA with their few titles get better quality titles. Basically Funimation gets more quantity over quality titles in my opinion. I see them as the company that’s afraid to grow a pair and take chances to win back the market. Instead they’d rather try and woo collectors with poorly thought out LE’s and crap trinkets. I like a nice hard box as much as the next guy , but they never seem to take into account certain things until it’s way after the point. Then when people finally get use to something then they change things. :laugh:

Sentai has some issues to don’t get me wrong but generally I find what they do pleases me more times then pisses me off.

Though in my ideal world Discotek and AnimEigo would be kings so take that as you will.

96

Almost all of the shows that I consider to be “classics” are either originally by Funimation or are now owned by Funimation. Almost everything that ADV ever had Funimation now has.

When it comes to licensing more current titles, I agree that Sentai is the winner. Pretty much everything current that I want to see has been acquired by Sentai. But when it comes to their catalog as a whole, I have to give it to Funimation. It isn’t really even a contest as they hold so many ADV and Geneon licenses in addition to their own releases.

If I were to re-buy the most modern versions of everything in my collection they would overwhelmingly be from Funimation :frowning:

97

A large chunk of those former ADV and Geneon titles have expired and were not renewed. What they kept was titles that either had sequels coming or titles that sold well for them. Which in the sold well department was not a lot from what I heard. They also as of this time have not released a lot of the titles they have because of problems overseas… Also if they hold true to their word all of those titles that have gotten a S.A.V.E release is its final release with them. A vast amount of their older series , Geneon rescues , and ADV rescues have or are getting S.A.V.E releases. I see their catalog shrinking more then growing in the next year or so. Sentai is popping on more newer titles at a time then Funimation is. Funimation seems to be trying to find those select titles they can get sales out of but sadly a lot of them seem to have stipulations in the licensing that either hurt the release or leave them not able to do anything for year or more. Sentai seems to be more picking titles without stipulations they know has sales potential. Dubbing the ones with sure fire sales and only subbing the ones that are more fan titles that could sell. Then going back later if they get enough views and sales to dub those titles.

98

With the death of those license rescues several classic shows are now gone forever, which is tragic. At least Funimation tried to keep them alive, I have to praise them for that. I suppose that I shouldn’t fault them for letting the shows which didn’t sell well fall back into oblivion, but it is hard not to as the best shows tend not to be the best sellers. I suppose that’s more the fault of the fans than funi. :frowning:

I approve of Sentai’s approach to dubbing releases. Personally I think that funimation’s admirable dedication to dubbing everything is doing them in as they have overextended themselves. Despite having capable directors like Bevins, Sabat, & Tatum in their employ they are being forced by having so many titles to dub to use less experienced actors and directors and I hear that they have to do rush jobs on the dubs, which explains their depressing fall in quality. Which is another reason that I applaud Sentai’s hiring of bang zoom to dub some of their releases as I’d hate to see Sentai overextend (though their dubs with nonstandard directors pwn those of funi, moonlight mile being an example). Bang zoom isn’t the greatest studio around, but their work is superior to that of these recent funimation dubs.

I still have to rank funimation’s catalog as the superior one. Even though they have let titles die their catalog still dwarfs Sentai’s, or so it seems. Now I know that quality trumps quantity, but IMO funimation has more of the quality shows currently. I tend to like comedies and the darker, deeply-plotted shows. When it comes to dubbing comedy, Sentai is the undisputed king. I chock this up to their superior dubbing process and Stephen Foster (they also have professional comedians as actors), but sadly Funi now has some of the best Sentai comedy shows.

When it comes to the deeper, darker shows, they were never Sentai’s forte (Geneon cornered this market) but when Sentai did them they owned. Funimation now owns basically every such show that Sentai ever did. On a tangent I suppose it is a good thing for the non-sentai companies to have gotten the deeper shows as they’re easier to dub, though Sentai could have done them better. One caveat there is that I really don’t associate Sentai with having voice actors for the stronger, darker (figuratively) female characters. Maybe that’s just because those sort of characters don’t come up much, Afaik, in Sentai releases. Kinda circular lol.

99

I say Discotek really has the best catalog at the moment. With Sentai a near second and Funimation a third. They’d be fifth or more down but the companies I’d rather be on top are either dead or dieing. Some situations bigger does not equal better and in this case my opinion is quality over quantity will always reign supreme.

100

According to ANN, discotek has licensed but a scant 19 properties, many of which are movies. Surely in all of Funimation’s vast catalog there are more than 19 shows of equal or superior quality to those of discotek to be found.